The Washington Post recently published a revealing and heartbreaking story about forced separation of children from their illegal immigrant parents — not the Trump-ordered fiasco we’ve watched over recent weeks at the U.S.-Mexico border, but in the Midwest as the result of brutal ICE raids that have ripped families apart under Presidents Obama and Bush before him. It’s beautifully written, worthy of a literature award if not a Pulitzer for journalism.
One line leapt out at me: “Who benefits from this?”
Nora, an 18-year-old girl who lost both her parents to ICE raids and is now raising her 12-year-old brother like something out of a dark 1970s ABC Afterschool Special or a Dave Eggers story, wondered why the U.S. government carries out such vicious policies and tactics, like using offers of free food to lure poor migrants into the clutches of heavily-armed immigration goons.
“Was it American taxpayers, who were paying to finance the raid and resulting deportations? Or American workers, most of whom were so disinterested in low-paying farm work that Ohio had announced a crisis work shortage of 15,000 agricultural jobs? Or Corso’s Nursery, a family-owned business now missing 40 percent of its employees?”
OK, so the canard about Americans being unwilling to fill low-paid agricultural jobs is transparent BS. The key phrase is low-paid. If all the illegal immigrants disappeared tomorrow the labor-market version of the law of supply and demand would force agribusiness employers to offer higher wages. Plenty of Americans would be happy to pick fruit for $25 an hour. Sorry, Corso’s — if you can’t afford to pay a living wage, you deserve to go out of business.
Still, Nora’s question is a good one. Whether you believe in open borders, want Trump to build The Wall or fall somewhere in between like me (build the wall, legalize the people already here who haven’t committed serious felonies, deport the criminals), everyone who cares about immigration should know the why and wherefore of how the U.S. government carries out deportations.
Contrary to what some liberals seem to believe, there is nothing unreasonable about border control. Determining who gets to enter your country’s territory, and who gets turned away, is one of the principal defining characteristics of a modern nation-state. Just you try to sneak into Latvia or Liberia without permission and see what happens. You can probably make it into Libya, but that’s because it’s a failed state.
After you catch illegal immigrants the question is, how do you deal with them?
Some countries, like Iran, deport unauthorized persons immediately, no due process. That’s what Trump wants to do.
Others treat them like criminals. Illegal immigrants caught in Italy face a hefty cash fine and up to six months in prison.
The United States falls in between. Applicants for political asylum are theoretically entitled to a hearing before an immigration court. Economic migrants receive no due process. Both classes face lengthy detentions before removal.
Lengthy detention is the key to Nora’s question.
So who benefits?
The answer is: America’s vast, secretive, politically connected, poorly regulated $5 billion private-prison industry. “As of August 2016, nearly three-quarters of the average daily immigration detainee population was held in facilities operated by private prison companies—a sharp contrast from a decade ago, when the majority were held in ICE-contracted bedspace in local jails and state prisons,” writes Livia Luan of the Migration Policy Institute.
Crime rates have been falling for years. So prison populations have been declining too. Adding to the down trend has been a rare area of bipartisan agreement in Congress; Democrats and Republicans agree that we need criminal justice reform centered around shorter sentences.
Originally sold as an innovative market-based solution to alleviate overcrowding in government-run prisons and jails for criminals, the private prison sector had been facing hard times before Trump came along. Private institutions were sitting empty. Until two years ago, private prisons had been scheduled to be phased out entirely by the federal sentencing system.
Trump made private prisons great again.
According to the UK Independent ICE arrests during Trump’s first nine months in office increased 43% over a year earlier. “Many of those immigrants are funnelled into a multibillion dollar private prison system, where between 31,000 and 41,000 detainees are held each night. In many cases, those private prison corporations — led by the behemoths GeoGroup and CoreCivic, formerly Corrections Corporation of America — have contracts with the federal government guaranteeing their beds will be filled, or that they will receive payment regardless of whether they have a full house on any given night.”
With profits guaranteed by pro-business government contracts, Wall Street is bullish on prisons for profit. “The Trump administration’s tough-on-immigration policies are unlikely to fade anytime soon, meaning investors should expect continued strict enforcement, more arrests by ICE and the need to accommodate a growing number of arrested individuals,” an analyst advised investors.
That’s likely to continue. In a classic example of the revolving door between government and private industry, the CEO of GEO is Daniel Ragsdale, who left his post as #2 at ICE in May 2017. Talk about swampy: ICE is extremely cozy with for-profit prisons.
When your customer base is as disenfranchised, unpopular and defenseless as convicts and undocumented workers, it’s tempting to cut corners on costs for their care. Reports of abuse and neglect are even more widespread in the private prison sector than in traditional government-run lockups. “The conditions inside were very bad. The facilities were old. The guards were poorly trained. If you got sick all they would just give you Tylenol and tell you to get back to your cell,” said Adrian Hernandez Garay, who served 35 months for illegal immigration at the Big Spring Correctional Institution, a Texas facility run by the private corporation GEO. He told Vice he was fed rice and beans seven days a week. He described Big Spring as “far worse” than other prisons where he was held.
Even if you think illegal immigrants are criminals who should be tossed out on their ears, you ought to be highly suspicious of the private prison industry. After all, they don’t want illegals deported. They want them housed indefinitely in their sketchy facilities. And you’re paying the bill.
(Ted Rall (Twitter: @tedrall), the political cartoonist, columnist and graphic novelist, is the author of “Francis: The People’s Pope.” You can support Ted’s independent political cartoons and columns and see his work first by sponsoring his work on Patreon.)
84 Comments.
> Sorry, Corso’s — if you can’t afford to pay a living wage, you deserve to go out of business.
Well, sorta. They can’t afford to pay a living wage because Americans aren’t willing to pay $20 for a head of lettuce.
The law of supply and demand cannot be denied. If we throw out the migrant farm workers (who we’ve been inviting in for over a hundred years) then either someone takes up the slack or we starve. We will probably object to starving even more than we object to migrant farm workers.
HEY! Here’s an idea! Somebody should start a conservapedia farm. Pay American workers minimum wage and mark up the goods the same as those marketed by traditional means. Libs pay $1.50 for a head of lettuce, RWNJ’s pay $20. Let’s see ’em put their money where their mouths are.
Grow your own lettuce. Everyone should have a victory garden. And a root cellar.
I wish I was a better vegetable gardener! The lettuce I tried growing got eaten by some creature in the middle of the night. I will try again in the fall. At least my fig tree has awesome fresh figs.
Were I not so concerned with anonymity, I would trade some red leaf lettuce for fresh figs!
Good luck!
Recently i met a plant pathologist and she has clients in the Salinas Valley of CA. They are one of the major berry farmers and she said that they are already almost done with moving most of their farms to Mexico. They have given up on Congress solving the immigrant farm laborer situation with some sort of comprehensive reform. Do we want more of our produce grown outside the country? This is not ecologically sustainable, and what about E. Coli outbreaks that originate outside the country?
You are right, No, we want our produce grown here.
To that end, look at the vast waste of space on suburban lawns and consider the amount of water and pesticides required to maintain that carpet of emerald green. California now rewards property owners who grow drought-resistant plants. What if we also rewarded people who grew their own food?
I cannot recall the author’s name, but he wrote a bestselling book called “Home” several years ago that talks about the outdoors as another room in a house, one that Americans are not properly maintaining.
> what about E. Coli outbreaks that originate outside the country?
Offhand, I’d say there was no difference between foreign and domestic E. Coli. Would you care for some Romaine lettuce or pre-cut melons?
Offhand, the origin of the domestic E coli is foreign.
@No.
It’s frustrating keeping others out of the garden.
I’ve used chicken wire and marigolds with varying success.
Are private prisons publicly traded? How can I invest in one?
Yes, they are, American Teacher. Your pension fund may be invested in one.
I’ve been reading up on private prisons. There is some serious money to be made, especially as Trump wants more detention centers for immigrants.
As in teaching, there are some real advantages to these private prisons. No one checks up on you. Snoops can’t file freedom of information requests because you are private. Just as no one really know what goes on in my classroom, no one really knows what goes on in these prisons.
We do know that the more prisoners you have, the more money you make just as the more students a district has, the more funding the state must provide.
As I’m somewhat experienced in running a prison myself, albeit on a small scale, I’d love to get in on this and bid for a contract.
Sunday’s New York Times “What it Costs to be Smuggled Across the U.S. Border” recounts the smuggling of a unskilled Salvadoran migrant, a smuggling paid for by an uncle in the U.S.; now this migrant wants to pay the same smugglers to bring other family members here.
The people who are here already here cannot be allowed to stay. Paying smugglers that bring others family members in just fuels the violence in their own countries that leads to more migration. Imagine if that money was used for reform or if these migrants started a revolution in their own country rather than coming here.
Furthermore, this unskilled Salvadoran is the reason Corso’s will never have to pay a living wage. Illegal immigration is theft.
Good question, Ted, which should, as you have here, be pursued more actively when attempting to understand current – and not so current – events. As the Romans used to ask, Cui bono ? or, in more modern parlance (which they would have no trouble understanding), «follow the money». And always keep an eye open for who’s short selling what on Wall Street (or some other exchange)….
Henri
My portfolio, as I have indicated, probably has private prison stocks. Both GEO and CXW are doing well this year. Shares are up!
The man imprisoned in one corner of the country and the man dining well in another are inevitably linked.
George Orwell: “In order that England may live in comparative comfort, a hundred million Indians must live on the verge of starvation-an evil state of affairs, but one in which you acquiesce every time you step into a taxi or eat a plate of strawberries and cream.”
Agreed.
“Florida = Honduras: Inequality kills.”
https://www.gregpalast.com/florida-honduras-inequality-kills-want-to-end-the-american-shooting-epidemic/
Guns don’t kill, economic inequality kills.
During my lifetime the human population of the earth has nearly tripled.
Yet, as humankind races toward the sixth extinction, the legality of population-limiting abortions is still contested.
One way or another, the increasingly starving human population of earth will be reduced.
@glenn – mother nature always bats last.
The human population has nearly tripled due to Western aid, vaccines, medicines, and food.
There needs to be an abortion clinic on every street corner. Of course, most of the world does not have streets and is not mapped out.
Sounds like we are slipping towards the Australian model of imprisoning immigrants: out of sight, out of mind….
Yes. Private companies do not have to let the media in.
@AT
For the sake of discussion, do you consider media exclusion as a positive or a negative development?
From your previous posts I can’t guess your take on this.
My position is that media should have access, that the withholding of such information would be tantamount to support of “fake news”.
Please excuse this question if you inadvertently take exception to it.
I take exception to nothing. I am happy to answer this.
And I’m afraid that I must answer it with a question. Whose media?
MSNBC, who will liken any sort of detention to Auschwitz? Or Fox News, who will say that the above picture is adequate shelter?
And that is the point. I need to know more. From where is this picture? I don’t like so many men in one room; although it seems clean and rather like a large gymnasium, the setup seems to invite a brawl as well as the spread of disease.
But I digress. Journalists no longer even feign objectivity. They all take sides. And if you are not on my side, that can only mean that you are looking for trouble, wilted vegetables, dust, a grumpy guard.
Look, I do not care about these people and I can assure you that they do not care about you. They just want to get into this country.
In Bowling Green, Ohio, two underage girls were kidnapped and raped by four illegal aliens from Mexico and Guatamela. One has been caught. Three are on the loose. (Source: Cleveland 19 News.) The Central American migrants don’t give a damn about what their compatriots did. The sad thing, Glenn, is that you don’t either.
@AT
“The Central American migrants don’t give a damn about what their compatriots did. The sad thing, Glenn, is that you don’t either.”
Were you informed about my opinion on this crime by MSNBC Or Fox News?
Or are you propagating “fake news” about me?
It is called an informed opinion about someone who supports a policy of allowing unskilled, semi-literate, scamming, criminal elements into the country. (See my previous comments for the sources. I have referenced everything.)
What is obscene is that there are no demonstrations against a government that does not protect its own citizens, particularly its little girls.
@AT
I’ll take that as a yes, followed by a double down on your first “fake news”.
You are a waste of space and breath.
There you go, screaming again.
Dont engage if you can’t handle it.
Why are you responding to me?
@AT
“There you go, screaming again.”
So, so sensitive AT for one who swings such a shit covered cock.
I can handle your kind’s shit. But why would anyone want to?
You overestimate your impact on me.
You are becoming your own worst enemy.
I’m awaiting your hate and bulkiness to give you a stroke.
Have you measured your blood pressure lately?
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout.
See Zusha Elinson’s “Trump’s Immigrant Detention Plans Benefits Private Prison Operators” in today’s Wall Street Journal.
Ted, of all people I didn’t expect you to write “Contrary to what some liberals seem to believe, there is nothing unreasonable about border control. Determining who gets to enter your country’s territory, and who gets turned away, is one of the principal defining characteristics of a modern nation-state.”
People believe in freedom. Assuming both parties agree, I can work where I want to, live where I want to, and buy what I want to, with very few exceptions. This is a positive side of capitalism and, when the negatives of some particular situation don’t outweigh it, it is an ideal we strive for. If I am born in Tulsa, no one can tell me that these fundamental freedoms don’t apply simply because I want to work, live, or buy in San Francisco. Members of the European Union can exercise these freedoms transnationally. And, you know what? Migration from Oklahoma to California, migration from France to Germany, etc. have not ruined the source or destination geographies. The claim that open borders will destroy anything other than racism are overblown — you’ve heard the statistics that immigrants to the US are more law abiding than natural born citizens, etc.
Restrictions on immigration may be “modern” but that doesn’t make them a good idea.
Nations need social cohesion to survive.
The kind of migration taking place today is not from Oklahoma to California and from France to Germany. It is from south to north. People from radically dissimilar cultures want to enter the West, 750 million according to Gallup. That is not feasible and it is not sustainable.
Furthermore, you, Lee, cannot go willy nilly wherever you want. There are walls and border controls the world over, not just in the West.
When you say “radically dissimilar cultures” as if it is an obvious negative, I hear racism. Hopefully, I am wrong about that. Is there a nation of mostly white people that you would be afraid to open borders with? Maybe you fear the weird food that the Norwegians eat??
Or is it the poverty that is found internationally that represents “radically dissimilar cultures” to you? Please note that the poor parts of the USA (or Europe) are not all migrating to the rich parts. Those who are migrating are not destroying the rich parts.
Or is it particular religions that you fear? I really don’t know what you are fearing and would like to hear your take on why “radically dissimilar cultures” are a negative to you.
Why do you hear racism?
Do you believe that all cultures are like the West? Isn’t it racist to think that anyone can be Western and vice versa?
I have no fear, but I prefer to be with people with whom I share things in common. That is nature.
Hmm… do you believe that “The West” is a monoculture? It isn’t. Really. There is hardly more diversity world-wide than there is in New York.
For example, some of us in “The West” embrace diversity and new experiences and others of us are abandoning a fundamental freedom of capitalism because “different” people make them feel uncomfortable.
New York is very segregated. The Upper West and East Sides of Manhaatan are largely white; Williamsburg and Crown Heights are Orthodox Jew; Bensonhurst is Italian; Jackson Heights Indian, and so on.
But please, tell me about this wonderful diversity about which I do not avail myself. Do you wear nonWestern clothing to work? Perhaps a loincloth? Does the azaan wake you up in the morning? Do you hunt your food with poison-tipped arrows and smoke peace pipes? Where do you live? A mud hut? A wigwam?
Or do you live in an apartment building, eat Americanized Thai food at the corner restaurant and watch the West Indian Day Parade?
> I never said that I dislike anyone
Really?
So you tell filthy lies about people, insult billions of fellow humans, support torture, murder, discrimination and separation of families because … you like them?
Yes, New York has much segregation. Yes, my participation in cultures that are not my own is frequently somewhat superficial, though not always.
Do you fear that if we have open borders you will be forced to deeply participate in other cultures? Sure, you will be asked to accept (or at least tolerate) those whose culture is different from yours. Is that so onerous that you’d be willing to deny me the chance to learn new cultures and deny everyone this fundamental freedom of capitalism? Does freedom of religion mean so little to you that you’d be willing to ban people from afar on the basis that their cultural / religious practices are unfamiliar to you?
Thank you for being honest.
No one is denying you the diversity you so crave. You could move to Bed Stuyvesant tomorrow. Why don’t you? Because it is 70% black and riddled with crime, that is why. You choose to live in a white neighborhood just like I do.
I am very familiar with other peoples and am constantly forced to tolerate them. As an American teacher and a white person, I can never be welcoming and inclusive enough. I live in fear that an ethnic minority will whip out their phone and try to record me for being racist when all I’m doing is reprimanding a kid for breaking the rules. It is onerous to be around so many groups of people. One walks on eggshells for fear of giving offense. A community needs to be unified in order to function.
Incidentally, why is it that only white majority countries are told they must be diverse and multicultural while everyone else gets the right to self-determination (except, of course, the Palestinians)?
@Teach:
” I live in fear that an ethnic minority will whip out their phone .. ”
A phone! OMG! That’s exactly the same thing as living in fear that a cop will whip out their gun and shoot you dead at a routine traffic stop.
“It is onerous to be around so many groups of people. I am very familiar with other peoples and am constantly forced to tolerate them. ”
… and yet you blame *them* for *your* problem.
They live in far, far, greater fear than you will ever know. The ironic thing is that their fear is a direct result of yours. If you got over your racism, they would have less to fear, and so be less likely to whip out their phones (or sandwiches!)
You like to brag that whites are in the driver’s seat, okay – don’t you think it’s time to accept responsibility for where the car is going?
My choosing to live somewhere other than Bed Stuyvesant (or Tulsa, San Francisco, etc.) is not at all the same as passing a law that says residents of these places cannot move to my neighborhood. My neighborhood thrives despite free movement within our country and it would continue to do so with free movement between countries.
Crazy H,
I’m actually having a conversation that I enjoy with Lee now, but since you are being respectful, I will engage with you.
Nonwhites know the tremendous power that they wield over whites by shrieking ‘racism.’ They don’t live in fear. They enjoy the power of ruining someone’s life.
Whites are not in the driver’s seat when they are held to higher standards, have to shut their mouths, and clap like trained seals at the word ‘diversity.’
So why is it that white-majority countries must be multicultural why everyone else gets self determination? If blacks, Hispanics, and asians have interests that they must look out for, then surely whites have interests, too, yes?
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight – you complain about people being disrespectful to you in the same post where you insult billions of people.
You’re a braver man than I am. I’d be scared of posting something like that for fear that people would think me a hypocrite.
Lee,
I don’t know your neighborhood, but many neighborhoods have zoning restrictions and income eligibility for mortgages, which is the same as passing a law disallowing some people from living there.
Having an immigration system that benefits the people of this country would be the same as the zoning restrictions the middle and upper classes have.
Zoning laws allow housing in my neighborhood, so foreigners seeking housing in my neighborhood would not be excluded on that basis. The income eligibility for mortgages you mention is capitalism. Capitalism is exactly what I think should be the determinant, rather than the laws that restrict these economic freedoms. In short, you are agreeing with me. Let’s open the borders to economic migrants and end this madness!
@Coach – your fallacy is ‘false equivalence’
There are no zoning restrictions concerning race, religion or sexual preference. While expensive neighborhoods tend to preclude poor people, I am unaware of any legal restrictions based on income other than low-income housing.
Can you cite any references?
Why do you want to open the borders to the barely literate and destitute?
Do you believe in national sovereignty at all or are you completely transnational with no communal loyalties?
Btw, zoning restrictions, such as acreage requirements, keep the destitute from crossing your neighborhood’s border.
There are two types of segregation, de jure and de facto.
De factor segregation allows a community to do what they are not allowed to do by law.
Zoning restrictions have the effect of racially segregating populations.
I’m not doing research right now. So sorry.
@American Teacher, the question is not “Why do you want to open the borders to the barely literate and destitute?” The question is, what gives you the moral right to pass laws to keep out the barely literate and destitute?
Yes, I know that the people who last conquered a land give themselves the legal right to make such laws in that land, but excepting for “might makes right,” what is your *moral* argument for barring willing participants from making standard economic transactions, such as where to live and work?
So far, all I am getting from you is that people in other countries are sometimes so dissimilar that … what … you might be uncomfortable? It is not a possible increase in crime you are worried about, unless you dispute the statistics on that. Are you afraid that immigrants who want to come to America might force you into wearing loincloths? (The irony that some of the Native Americans that we booted off this land wore loincloths is not lost on me.)
> Why do you want to open the borders to the barely literate and destitute?
When your ancestors first came to this country, they were most likely barely literate and destitute. Should we have denied them entry?
If the reason that they are destitute is because we screwed up their country, then we owe them big time. I’d prefer to repair the damage we did, so they don’t have to run. But that appears to be off the table.
> I’m not doing research right now.
IOW, you cannot verify your assertion. Given that you are historically dishonest I must respectfully assume that you are lying in this case as well. I will, however, retract that statement if you can prove yours.
I do agree with your distinction between de facto and de jure discrimination. Let’s just say I’m not exactly in favor of de facto discrimination either.
Well, what gives you the moral right to invite them over? Originally, you were making an argument about diversity, then capitalism. Now you want to assume the moral high ground. How is it morally right to bring over the barely literate and destitute to the people already living here?
Sunnu wrestlers wear loinclothes, too. So did Gandhi.
People in our government are impossibly addicted to regime change and meddling; they need to be stripped of power. American citizens prefer the interference stops.
But that won’t stop the migration. Simply put, the have-nots want to come to the land of the haves. They will have to stay in their own countries and do the hard work of nation-building, just like my ancestors did.
Zoning restrictions result in discrimination. Read. Stop making demands. And be respectful or you won’t have the pleasure of my company.
@teach
> Stop making demands.
We’ve been over this before.
I’m not making a demand, I’m pointing out that you are once again spouting unconfirmed
nonsense… uh … “data.” Confirm it, and it becomes fact – I even offered to retract my words should you do so. How about an apology? Is that respectful enough for you? If you can confirm your statement I’ll respectfully apologize. Such a deal!But it is not disrespectful in the least to point out that you’ve told a lot of lies on this site. That is an indisputable fact. If you don’t want people to assume you’re lying, then you need to tell the truth more often. It’s just that simple.
“Pleasure of” your company? Hardly. Try “amusement at”
@American Teacher writes “Do you believe in national sovereignty at all or are you completely transnational with no communal loyalties?” In the USA we use our national sovereignty to make sure that democracy, freedom, and capitalism dominate in our land. My communal loyalties are indeed to these freedoms.
That you would jettison these freedoms to keep out people you find dissimilar suggests that you might have better luck in some other nation. Perhaps a theocracy like the Holy See (Vatican City), Iran, or Israel would suit you better.
Dear Lee,
I see that your loyalties are ideological and not communal. Perhaps you should look up those words so that you know whereof you speak.
Sovereign nations have borders. All of them. Some even have walls to keep the radically dissimilar out, for example, those who want to wage jihadi, marry little girls, practice fmg, or believe in honor killings. If you find that diverse and would like to embrace it, may I suggest Pakistan or Somalia?
@AT – why, I believe that you were just disrespectful to Lee. Hypocrite much?
Anyway, you keep referencing places you feel are less civilized, even as you have more in common with them than you do with Americans. You’re the one who wants to combine government and religion, you’re the one who wants to attack everyone who is different than you. You’d fit right in.
I’m not sure how you got the idea that Pakistan and others are somehow more diverse than the US. Perhaps if you were to look up those countries so that you know whereof you speak.
You do not need to intrude on my conversations with my other fans.
I don’t think I would fit in at all. I have nothing in common with a people who would cut off a girl’s clitoris with a razor blade. I consider myself far superior.
You, on the other hand, believe all groups are equal. I’m sure you would never presume to judge the practices I mentioned.
Your list “wage jihadi, marry little girls, practice fgm, or believe in honor killings” are all crimes in America. Chances are that people who come from countries where these are common are coming to escape these crimes. Statistically speaking, the immigrants who do come are less likely to commit crimes against me than the people who are already here.
Lee,
>chances are
FGM and honor killings are on the rise in the United States.
“The Alarming Rise of FGM in the United States” CNN, July, 2017
I’m troubled by what you write, Lee
>Statistically speaking, immigrants are statistically unlikely to commit crimes against me
Is that because, as you have admitted, your embrace of diversity is shallow and you don’t live around immigrants?
And are you okay with FGM so long as you don’t have female genitals to mutilate?
Yes, those are bad practices. FGM is not in the Quran, and in fact is practiced by very few Muslims. (Attributing it to all is merely confirming your prejudice and/or ignorance)
But why would you object? According to you, the state should have the power to sterilize people. Not only that, but MALE genital mutilation IS in the bible, and routinely practiced in the US.
Yes, you see a huge difference between xtians and Muslims. Educated people see very little difference at all. You all pray on your knees to the same god, believe the same mythos, practice the same hatred of gays, your services are remarkably similar, and your bloody hatred of anyone who deviates from your ideal is exactly the same across all the Abrahamic religions.
In fact, your hatred of each other is one of the few things keeping the rest of us safe. If you ever realize you have more in common with each other that with civilized people, then civilization is doomed.
@Teach – maybe you should consider reading the article before referencing it.
“It’s practiced in households at all educational levels and all social classes and occurs among many religious groups, including Muslims, CHRISTIANS and animists. ”
(Emphasis mine)
Here’s one survivor’s story – a white, middle class, CHRISTIAN who’s mother had her clit cut off when she was three years old because she was touching herself. An actual, licensed doctor did the procedure, right here in the US.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/02/fgm-happened-to-me-in-white-midwest-america
Yes, it’s entirely evil – and it’s entirely the result of the same type of chauvinism you preach on a daily basis.
I never mentioned Islam when discussing FGM. I said radically different cultures.
200,000 million women alive today have had their genitals mutilated. (WHO)
3 million girls a year have their genitals mutilated. (WHO)
98% of Somali girls have had their genitals mutilated. (WHO)
The practice is underground in the U.S. in fact, families send their daughters overseas to have it done.
>it is the result of the same type of chauvinism you preach on a daily basis.
It is disgusting that you somehow try to connect the practice to me or people who think like me. We’re done.
Why, yes, Teach – it’s just an amazing coincidence that the countries you mentioned were Muslim-majority countries.
I am definitely against crimes regardless of which cultures within or without our nation support them. My apologies for typing “… against me,” that was a mistake. It would have been more accurate to say that I am against crimes regardless of who the victim is — thanks for catching that!
You’ve come up with a nice list of serious crimes that are more likely to be committed by foreigners in the nations you fear, but there are lists of serious crimes committed by US citizens too. The lists may not be the same, but all these serious crimes are bad. Do you agree that US citizens also commit many serious crimes?
> It is disgusting that you somehow try to connect the practice to me or people who think like me.
Well, we can agree on the ‘disgusting’ part anyway,
But your attitudes are incontrovertibly identical; and have their sources in the same Holey Book. You’re already on record here as fearing female sexuality – you can’t take back what you’ve already posted.
In addition to learning to read the articles you post, you should read those that others post before commenting on them. There was no ‘underground’ at all, nor is it an isolated incident.
If you had a son, would you have him circumcised?
> We’re done.
Buh bye. Don’t let the doorknob hit your head on the way out.
WHO also estimates that 1.2 BILLION men have had their genitals mutilated.
>do you agree that U.S. citizens also commit many serious crimes?
I do indeed, and that is why we do not need to import more problems.
On July 17, Felicia Nicole Smith kidnapped a six-month-old baby boy and lit him afire. By the time the police found the baby, his body had been so badly burned that he died.
The death penalty is too good for that merciless American savage.
Souce: daily mail
> The death penalty is too good for that merciless American savage.
The Commander in Chief of the US armed forces is responsible for thousands of deaths, many of them innocents. Would you hold him to the same high standard? If so, we may find some common ground – death by hanging is the standard penalty for war crimes.
Would you care if the little burned girl was born in Honduras? Would you support her mother if she tried to get her little girl out of that hellhole?
… or would you tell a bunch of lies in order to justify turning a blind eye?
“boy” – same difference, an innocent child.
@American Teacher: I think we are in agreement that a small percentage of American citizens commit serious crimes and a smaller percentage of American immigrants commit serious crimes. Do I have that right? I do not see that these statements justify keeping out immigrants on the basis of crime.
Also, how and where I choose to live my life is about how I engage in the pursuit of happiness. I do not see why my choices (e.g., the cultures that I frequent) would cause my judgement to be poor when I advocate that others should have the same options as I do … which, to be clear, includes the right to live and work wherever I want (assuming that the counterparties agree), but does not include the right to commit serious crimes of any sort.
Immigrants should be kept out on the basis of crime.
For example, South Sudanese are less than one percent of Melbourne’s population and yet they commit more than one percent of the crimes and are 57% more likely to commit armed robbery. (Source: Sydney Morning Herald).
Melbourne is experiencing a problem with African gangs.
To get rid of the problem, Melbourne must get rid of the people who are causing it.
It is just common sense.
At least I now understand your argument … that immigrants are more criminal than citizens. Do you have a link for the South Sudanese in Melbourne article?
I’ll see your “South Sudanese in Melbourne” article and raise you five:
1. “Does Undocumented Immigration Increase Violent Crime”, https://doi.org/10.1111/1745-9125.12175, which includes “the relationship between undocumented immigration and violent crime is generally negative.”
2. “Spatial Heterogeneity in the Effects of Immigration and Diversity on Neighborhood Homicide Rates”, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911240/, which includes “In general, however, immigrant concentration is either unrelated or inversely related to homicide, whereas language diversity is consistently linked to lower homicide.”
3. “Cross‐city evidence on the relationship between immigration and crime”, https://doi.org/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6688(199822)17:3%3C457::AID-PAM4%3E3.0.CO;2-F, which includes “we find that youth born abroad are statistically significantly less likely than native‐born youth to be criminally active.”
4. “The Trump Hypothesis: Testing Immigrant Populations as a Determinant of Violent and Drug‐Related Crime in the United States”, https://doi.org/10.1111/ssqu.12300, which includes “Data uniformly show no association between immigrant population size and increased violent crime.”
5. “Recent Immigrants: Unexpected Implications for Crime and Incarceration”, http://www.nber.org/papers/w6067, which includes “Among 18-40 year old men in the United States, immigrants are less likely to be institutionalized than the native-born, and much less likely to be institutionalized than native-born men with similar demographic characteristics. Furthermore, earlier immigrants are more likely to be institutionalized than more recent immigrants.”
> Immigrants should be kept out on the basis of crime.
I see – given that long-time immigrants are more likely to commit crimes, we should deport all long-time immigrants in favor of more recent ones.
In particular, white, christian, authoritarian, gun nuts are far more likely to commit mass murder and other hate crimes than are decent people.
Buh-bye. Watch out for that doorknob.
> To get rid of the problem, Melbourne must get rid of the people who are causing it.
It’s so nice when we can agree like this! You’re right! They should deport all the racists who cause the problems.
So should we.
Buh-bye.
Lee,
It has been a while since I have heard from you. If you look up the Sydney Morning Herald from that date, you will be able to find the article. It’s on you now.
My one will top your five.
Sputnik International (I believe our host writes for them) reported that 95% of rapes in Sweden are committed by foreign men (1/17/18). On May 5, 4 Eritrean men gang raped a disabled Swedish woman. The attack was so brutal that it ripped internal organs. For once, prosecutors are pushing for the men’s deportation. (I hope that Elin Ericsson does not intervene.). It was all over the news. I’m sure you’ll be able to find it.
That 95% too much for me, Lee. How much is it for you?
@Gym teacher –
You do realize that Sydney is in Australia … right?
How will turning away refugees in the US solve Australia’s (alleged) problem?
I found an article at https://sputniknews.com/europe/201805081064240083-sweden-rape-migrants/ . Is that the one you refer to? The article indicates that another entity, Aftobladet, had an article that is about “group rapes” which apparently is a subclass of rapes in general. The articles indicates that 99 out of 112 convictions (88%) for this crime over an unspecified four-year stretch were of people who are first or second generation foreigners.
Wikipedia indicates that there are about 6700 rapes in Sweden per year, or about 26,800 in four years. So your statistic is descriptive of 99 / 26800 = 0.37% of all rapes in Sweden. While looking at this 0.37% of rapes is important because we want to eliminate 100% of rapes, I’d want to know some statistics about the other 99.63% of rapes before I jump to any conclusions.
Dear Lee,
Rather than go back and forth about a statistical analysis on which we will never agree, let’s agree that you claim to want to live in some sort of large administrative zone, and not a nation.
@American Teacher, I was hopeful, when you divulged that it was crime by immigrants that you feared, that we would be able to examine the statistics there and get to the bottom of things. It is with regret that I let go of that hope.
You want to agree to disagree? I think that our nation is defined by and is a beacon of freedom: democracy, freedom of religion, capitalism, and so on. As best as I can tell, you think that excluding people who are culturally dissimilar is more important than these American ideals.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Dear Lee,
I find it interesting that you choose to cite a Zionist poet to talk about the ideal American society.
My intent was to quote The Statue of Liberty. If I failed, please excuse my mistake. Rather than get distracted onto the topic of Zionism, I’d like to continue with the current topic.
Do you want to be part of a nation that values democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of commerce, and so on, or does your dislike of culturally dissimilar people trump all that?
Dear Lee,
In 2017, the European Hugh Court affirmed Belgium’s new law banning face veils, saying the ban “enhanced the ability of people to live together.”
I support enhancing that ability.
(I never said that I dislike anyone. That is your spin.)
«I’ll see your “South Sudanese in Melbourne” article and raise you five:…» Lee, excuse me for intervening, but as you are new to this forum, I find it incumbent upon me to ask if you realise that your interlocutor’s interest in evidence regarding the matters on which s/he chooses to pontificate is on a level of that of her/his poltiical ideal Mr Trump. This is evident not only with regard to her/his posts regarding immigrants – to the United States or elsewhere – but to those concerning medical care. Anyone with an interest in the matter and adequate reading comprehension can see from OECD statistics that the United States in this regard is characterised by extremely high costs but rather poor outcomes (as measured by, e g, life expectancy and infant mortality). But none of this matters in the slightest to this Walter Mitty figure, who, alas, entirely lacks the good nature and charm of Mr Thurber’s character….
Henri
Hello, Henri, my good friend.