Many lefties, me included, won’t vote for Hillary Clinton because she supported the Iraq War, a mistake for which sbe has never apologized, and has doubled down upon with her actions destroying Libya, now a failed state. But some self-described liberals are willing to overlook this egregious crime of morality and politics.
The A La Carte Society
Ted Rall
Ted Rall is a syndicated political cartoonist for Andrews McMeel Syndication, WhoWhatWhy.org and Counterpoint. He is a frequent contributor to The Wall Street Journal, a graphic novelist and author of many books of art and prose, and an occasional war correspondent. He is, recently, the author of the graphic novel "The Stringer."
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Translation and correction: “A vocal minority of lefties, me included, are willing to allow the Republicans to destroy the country because Hillary isn’t “pure” enough for us, and Lord knows, appeasing my feelings about “purity” is far more important than the good of the country because I’m a super-special snowflake, don’t you know?”
Fixed that for you Ted. And that attitude, right there, is the biggest reason there’s been little to know progress on the goals “progressives” claim to want for forty plus years.
Whimsical,
There is, also, the aspect you have left out. I’m not voting for Hillary for all of the above, but also because I simply do not trust her. If voting is just about picking the most electable person, then so be it. Let’s just put the thing up on eBay and allow whoever can bid the highest to have it.
Hillary isn’t a case of “best of a bad lot.” She’s interchangeably bad with a whole lot of others.
I think Malcolm X had it right, all the way back in ’64. Everyone should register as independent. And no one should say how they’re going to vote. “I’m voting for the candidate who represents my interests. And if I make a mistake, next time, I’ll vote him out and put in the new guy.”
@ alex_the_tired –
Since I don’t respond directly to TROLLs, maybe you could ask for clarification regarding what “little to know progress” means. I get confused sometimes.
😀
And to add to the pile-on: It’s Volkswagen, not Volkswagon.
The Grammar Nazi has spoken.
Alex-
It’s not about giving the most electable person the job. Its about giving the person whose best for the country the job- even if the difference between them and the candidate who is worst for the country is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.
I reject entirely your notion that Hillary and the Republicans are interchangeable. But I’m not an unreasonable man- pick a Republican and make a viable case that they are better for this country than Hillary (without resorting to the “things will be better once the Republicans crash the system” nonsense), and I’ll drop it.
Til then every time a super special snowflake puts their own feelings about “purity” ahead of the good of the country, I intend to call them on it
Think about what you’ve just asked. I’m saying Hillary and the Republicans are interchangeable. You then ask me to pick a Republican that is better than Hillary.
So the only way to prove my thesis is to disprove it?
Perhaps you hit send prematurely?
@ alex_the_tired –
This is the sort of thing you get into when you’re trying to reason with a TROLL.
That’s why I won’t reply to his idiotic comments. It’s an exercise in futility.
😀
Oh, no.
Sorry I wasn’t clear. Your thesis is bunk, I thought that was obvious. The only way Hillary would be interchangeable with a Republican is if they cloned her and raised her in a carefully controlled environment to make sure she had the exact same experiences – which isn’t possible.
So, given that it is obviously literally impossible for Hillary to be interchangeable with a Republican presidential candidate, therefore there must be some degree of difference between her and the Republican , no matter how small.
Which leaves you with one of two choices:
1) Admit you’re not voting for Hillary because you don’t feel the difference between her and a Republican is large enough. Valid opinion to have, though acting on it puts you squarely in super-special snowflake territory. Hell, _I_ feel that the difference between Hillary and the Republicans isn’t large enough, but that is NOT a valid reason to aid the Republicans in destroying the country. Not for anyone.
2) As I said, make a valid case that ANY of the Republican candidates would be better for THIS country than Hillary (without making the utterly spurious claim that “things will be better once Republicans crash the system”) and I’ll drop the matter.
Der-
LOL. Dude, responding to me through proxies still counts as responding to me. It’s hysterical when one second you’re like: “I won’t waste time with him” and then you turn around and ask others “Have him clarify this. Ask him what he means by that”. Best laugh I’ve had all day.
And as a reward, Ill answer the question you asked below. It was a simple typo nothing more. I occasionally have a homophone problem when posting un-caffeinated.
It should have read “little to no”, obviously. Because look at any issue “progressives” claim to care about it and see if it’s gotten better or worse since the early 70’s- when “progressives” started being duped by Republicans that the best way to make Democrats go left was to elect Republicans.
If its gotten better, well, I’d like to hear about it, frankly, because on a country-wide scale, I can’t find any.
If it’s gotten worse, its the direct result and responsibility of the super-special snowflakes who put their precious feelings about “purity” ahead of making actual progress.
Glad to see you acknowledge your confusion, as well. Remember, the first step is admitting you have a problem.
@ alex_the_tired –
See what I mean? The TROLL can’t even respond on the thread!!!!
😀
My previous post should have read:
“… on the CORRECT thread.” Somehow that word was deleted before I hit “Send”! 🙁
LOL, Der.
You keep responding to me through proxies, which still means you’re responding to me. You make me laugh, which is why I did you the courtesy of answering your question above.
It was an afterthought, just like you. You make me laugh, but not enough for a direct reply.
Hillary would rule however AIPAC instructs. For that matter, it’s the same way with the rest of America’s extended clown-car of politicians. AIPAC is just another tool of global corporate hegemony. Global corporatism is the zygote of SKYNET. Skynet encompasses the mechanized slaughter of human civilization, but not always by Hollywood standards.
DanD
Actually, it was Konrad Adenauer who gave the Autobahn its start — not Adolf Hitler.
Hey, quit confusing the issue with obscure facts … .
D
Sorry….
I’ll go back to my corner and try to remain in the shadows.
😀
As Mayor of Cologne, Konrad Hermann Joseph Adenauer did indeed open a 20 km stretch of separated highway between that city and Bonn on 6 August 1932 (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn_%28Deutschland%29) – a much shorter stretch of this type of highway had previously been opened in Berliner-Grünewald in 1921, and a longer Italian highway between Milano and Varese in 1924 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rete_autostradale_italiana) -, but the fact remains that it was under the Nazis that this massive road construction programme in Germany was carried out, just as it was the Fascist government in Italy that was responsible for the autostrade in that country….
Henri
@ mhenriday –
The further development of the Autobahn, in my opinion, is no feather-in-the cap for the Nazis, as any government would have done likewise.
I agree, mein verehrter Lehrer, that just about any German government would have done likewise, considering the country’s situation at the height of the Great Depression. But that doesn’t change the fact that it was, in fact, the NSDAP government that did it, just as it was that government that plunged the continent of Europe into war….
Facts remain facts….
Henri
@ mhenriday –
The premise of Ted’s cartoon, however, is a conditional: “What if” the Germans hadn’t put them into power? “No Autobahn!” is a fallacious conclusion, for the reasons you and I have discussed: The economy at the time would have instilled in any elected government a driving desire to develop the “super-highway” as well as the Volkswagen! 🙂
An excellent point, mein verehrter Lehrer ; I hadn’t considered that….
老朽
頓首
Henri
With the help of Google Translate:
私はあなたと意見を交換楽しみます。
🙂
As we know, mein verehreter Lerhre, Google Translate‘s a bitch, particularly when it comes to translating between languages as far removed from each other as Japanese and English. Here below three ways of expressing your sentiments in (my rusty – haven’t been there in nearly half a century ! ) Japanese :
貴方と意見を交換するは楽しいです。。。。
貴方と物事を議論する楽しいです。。。。
貴方と意見交換をすることは楽しいです。。。。
My response is a given :
此方こそ ! 。。。 (Me, too !…) 🙂
Henri
Derlehrer,
Concerning little-to-no progress. I cannot lay my hands on the original source because I’ve had a couple of drinks, am very sleepy, and don’t want to turn this into a 45 minute research paper …
But i am reminded of the line about how half a loaf is worse than no loaf at all because when you get half a loaf, it dulls the hunger, and tricks you into thinking that you’re not that badly off. The 1% has been doing it for decades now. Had they simply starved us all, we’d have rounded them all up and shot them years ago.
Malcolm X talked a lot about blacks buying and keeping rifles. I think it’s one of his few major intellectual mistakes. He mistakes the rifle for power. The rifle is never power, and it actually weakens the holder because the holder transfers the power, the moment of initiation, to the thing, rather than retaining it unto himself.
Ever been confronted by a mob wielding rifles?
Ever been confronted by a mob wielding baseball bats?
They are equally terrifying. It isn’t the weapon, it’s the wielder.
If the 99% understood this, we’d have single-payer health care and schools that fed and taught children, rather than the obscene caricature of a society we live in now.
Did anyone see the video of the Prez expressing dismay over the Charleston massacre?
I can only hope and pray — as all Good Americans (TM) should — that it didn’t ruin his golf game.
Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. – Mao Zedong
Mao was right.
Mao and Malcolm were right, but only up to a point. The gun is power only in that the person holding it is committed to using it. And when you get people thinking that Gun=Power, the antithesis of that forms too: Loss of Gun=Loss of Power.
A “revolutionary” doesn’t need a gun to start the revolution. How can I say that? Easy. Those who revolt can ALWAYS figure out a way to take weapons from the ones in charge. Walk into a kitchen or a Home Depot. Good Christ, either one is an arsenal. Don’t have a gun? Buy a machete. Pretty soon, you’ll have a gun.
Give it five more years. I suspect the real revolution will come in the form of deliberately tampering with the financial system.
Alex_the_tired,
I see what you mean now about the limited power of the gun itself. I agree.
There is NO reason to continue the “inevitable” game. There is an alternative and he seems to be getting the biggest turnouts of ALL in the presidential nomination race. So let us compare the Generalsssima to the person challenging her within her own party.
For example, Bernie Sanders met with HR Clinton in 1993 after she was appointed chair of hubby’s “Task Force on National Health Care Reform.”
“In February, Sanders requested a meeting with Hillary, “to bring in two Harvard Medical School physicians who have written on the Canadian system,” according to the records of the administration’s task force. Those physicians were Stephanie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein, leading advocates for single-payer health care.
They got their meeting at the White House that month, and the two doctors laid out the case for single-payer to the first lady. “She said, ‘You make a convincing case, but is there any force on the face of the earth that could counter the hundreds of millions of the dollars the insurance industry would spend fighting that?’” recalled Himmelstein. “And I said, “How about the president of the United States actually leading the American people?’ and she said, ‘Tell me something real.’ ” tinyurl.com/qc4ju3w
—————–
Note the beginning of the “powerless Democratic president” meme?
There is clearly more than a several hundred-thousandth of a quadrillionth of a percent difference between the two major Democratic Party candidates. Focus on that instead of our resident broken record.
Hey, I support Bernie too. Maybe he’ll pull off a miracle and take the nomination and the Presidency.
Unlike “progressives”, however, I’m prepared to do what’s necessary to save the country if/when he loses.
Who the fuck ever said we wanted to “save” the country?!
The country can’t be saved; it’s too far gone. Just like Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, the U.S. is an entirely pathologically insane and evil society. It must be destroyed from outside pressure as well as internal contradictions, but as I have pointed out before there will be no internal uprising as most Americans are so brainwashed and utterly destroyed psychologically that they are evil, insane maniacs.
Prole-
Your entire post translates to – “Please turn of the country to my Republican overlords.”
The country is still saveable, and only the insane, and the duped/employed by Republicans don’t want to save it.
My way not only saves but eventually dramatically improves the country. And thats why “progressives” fight it tooth and nail
«My way not only saves but eventually dramatically improves the country. And thats [sic !] why “progressives” fight it tooth and nail» A classic illustration of megalomania, botht in the exaggerated self-importance – «my way .. saves the country» and in the notion of powerful enemies, dedicating all their efforts to keeping one down – «“progressives” fight it tooth and nail»….
Grandiose delusions coupled with a persecution complex – a dangerous combination. Let us hope that our «Whimsical» isn’t in to firearms as well….
Henri
@ mhenriday –
I have yet to see anything posted that explains what might be the “way” — have you seen such enlightenment?
No, mein verehrter Lehrer, I haven’t – and this, of course, goes far beyond our dear «Whimsical», whose path seems to be modelled on that of the DNC. I haven’t seen anything that seems likely to get us out of the fix we’re in – although I have to admit that I’m impressed with the Greek government’s decision to call a referendum on whether or not to accept the «terms» offered by the so-called «troika». But that’s no solution to the general malaise in which we find ourselves. Up shit’s creek without a paddle would seem to be an adequate description….
Henri
de, henri-
“There are none so blind as those who refuse to see”
«There are none so blind as those who refuse to see» Indeed, «Whimsical», indeed ! But were you to remove your head from the DNC’s capacious posterior, you might find it worthwhile opening your eyes…. 😉
Henri
@ mhenriday –
More proof that it is a TROLL!
No substance, no “way” mentioned — just idiotic nonsense intended to distract from any real discussion. I could say: “The blind leading the blind” is just as relevant. But I won’t, because I’m not a TROLL and avoid feeding them.
😀
Thanks for that interesting link, falco !…
Henri
I enjoyed reading that, as well. It’s an interesting perspective.
Whimsical,
“Admit you’re not voting for Hillary because you don’t feel the difference between her and a Republican is large enough. Valid opinion to have, though acting on it puts you squarely in super-special snowflake territory. Hell, _I_ feel that the difference between Hillary and the Republicans isn’t large enough, but that is NOT a valid reason to aid the Republicans in destroying the country. Not for anyone.”
Okay. Hang on. You mention that you don’t feel the difference between Hillary and the Republicans is large enough either. But you won’t vote for a Republican over Hillary.
But if there’s no difference, what does it matter which way you vote? Here’s why it’s worse to vote for a Dem in Rep clothing.
Remember NAFTA? George H.W. Bush started that (IIRC, based on some stuff that had started out during the Reagan administration). He couldn’t get it through in time though. So he handed it off to Bill Clinton.
From Wikipedia: Clinton, while signing the NAFTA bill, stated that “NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t support this agreement.”
From Huffington Post (the reference is to an Economic Policy Institute Report): According to a report by Economic Policy Institute economist Robert Scott, entitled “Heading South: U.S.-Mexico trade and job displacement after NAFTA,” an estimated 682,900 U.S. jobs have been “lost or displaced” because of the agreement and the resulting trade deficit.
That’s the danger of voting for Hillary to “thwart” the Republicans. For most Americans, the political parties are binary. They “trust” a Democrat more or a Republican more. So when a “Democrat” presents a Republican plan, people who would oppose it if it had an “R” after it, let it through, applauding wildly. (Two legs bad; four legs good.)
Here’s another example: the half-true half-false issue of whether Obamacare was a Republican creation from 1993.
A review of the two pieces of legislation show that they’re pretty close. And on the main issue, they’re identical: NEITHER actually reforms the health industry in the U.S. to be like the universal healthcare systems of other first-world nations. In both cases, it’s a shell game that allows the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industries to keep making money. But because it has the “D” brand on it, it went through.
Hillary will not just be “more of the same.” She will be a moderate-to-center Democrat who will “compromise.” (Sound familiar? We’ve had eight years of it with Obama.) She’ll make her nominees for the Supreme Court, and, guess what. Her nominee stance will be like this: “I want to nominate the ultra-liberal progressive but I know the Republicans will block that, so I won’t. I’ll nominate the moderate-to-center and hope that we can all ‘compromise.'”
So it isn’t me being a special snowflake. It’s me applying history and experience, as well as noticing the contradictions. Hill makes a speech for a quarter-mill to a bunch of executives. A couple weeks later, a bill those execs were pushing for gets voted in to law. Totally not a conflict of interest. Totally not. And Hillary feels my pain and will fight like hell for me. Sure. if I’m a corporation with some money to hand her for a rubber chicken speech payoff.
“But if there’s no difference, what does it matter which way you vote?”
As I already demonstrated it is literally impossible for there to be NO difference. Given that, the only questions are degree and direction.
The only valid reason not to vote for Hillary if she gets the nod is if you can make a case that the degree of damage that Hillary might do is greater than the damage the Republicans WILL do. And thats a case I’d like to see, because I can’t imagine it.
Do the math- even if Clinton has only a 25% chance of doing what she says she’ll do (and I would argue that that’s ridiculously low-I’d at least double it) the Republican candidates WILL do what they say they will do.
And what the Republicans say they will do is country destruction.
25% of good things happening trumps 100% chance of bad things happening. You need either to make a convincing case it doesn’t or admit dislike of Hillary (for not being “pure” enough) is coloring your calculations- putting you square in the center of super-special snowflake territory. Sorry, bud.
Oh, and if you ever come across the author of that idiotic statement about half a loaf being worse than no loaf, do let me know. I’d bet they never went hungry a day in their life, because only someone who never suffered hunger could make so inane a statement.
Oh,and you’re wrong about Obamacare; single-payer was and is NOT POSSIBLE then and now. It will take a generation of slow and steady progress in tiny incremental steps before it happens. (That’s assuming “progressives” get a clue- if they keep whining and punishing Democrats for not delivering the impossible immediately, it might take 2 or 3 generations.
Obamacare could’ve been a little bit better, but not much. As always, Democrats delivered 85%-90% of what could be delivered and were promptly vilified by “progressives” for a stellar job.
The more “progressives” double down on their stuck on stupid punishment strategy, the longer it’ll take for progress to be made.
Hell had they not been duped into it by Republicans in the 70’s, we’d probably have single payer right now.
Everybody realizes that “Whimsical” is either a psycho or a paid shill, right? Either way he/she is an agent of reaction. You don’t have to be a “pure” Leftist to understand that both Hillary and Bernie are representatives of the capitalist class and full supporters of U.$. Imperialism.
There’s nothing left to save, folks. At any rate, presidential elections are an especially egregious waste of time for anyone who would like to fundamentally change the society in a more progressive direction.
Another “progressive” trying to peddle the phony idea that the way to make the country more progressive is to hand it over to the Republicans.
And they think _I’m_ a paid shill. Yeah, right.
«And they think _I’m_ a paid shill. Yeah, right.» No, Whimsical ; I don’t believe you are a paid shill. A shill and a fool – certainly, but that anyone would pay you for the tripe you post to these threads is rather hard to conceive…. 😉
Henri
@ mhenriday –
Well said! 🙂
Whimsical,
It isn’t about making the country more progressive by handing it over to Republicans. This is not a progressive country to begin with. It isn’t as bad as North Korea, but talk to people from Scandinavia. This is not a progressive country. We have a few trappings, to keep everyone lulled. We will not become progressive by continuing a system in which people like Hillary are the “best” option. Hillary is, as I pointed out, bought and owned by corporates. She’s got a “D” on her, so a lot of citizens with little to no political education figure that she’s going to go after Democratic type issues.
It’s called affinity fraud. You give the person who looks like you or has similar interests or characteristics as you do more trust. You let your guard down. With the Republicans, the progressive-leaning groups in the country will be more suspicious, they’ll check more carefully. They will be more able to wake the people because the response won’t be an automatic, “B-b-but, Hillary’s a Democrat.”
Hillary will make all the right noises, do all the right speeches, and, just like Obama, at the end of the day, it’ll be a big pile of not much. If she wins, I guarantee her nominees for the Supreme Court will be relatively conservative. She isn’t going to put Bernie Sanders on the court. She isn’t going to put a vegan environmentalist there.
As for Obamacare. Single-payer is possible. Proof? Look at Canada. They have it. Look at Denmark, England, Germany, Japan, etc. They all have it. We have something like it, called Social Security. When people are asked, individually, huge numbers want universal healthcare. Then Hillary and the rest get their scripts from the pharmaceuticals. And the conversation swings back to the usual.
What Obama and “Democrats” like him gave us, as we’re seeing right now, is the perfect set-up for the Republicans because it is the “half-loaf” vs. the “no loaf.” What happens if the Supreme Court comes back and wipes out Obamacare is all those states? The Republicans will step up, “See? Single-payer simply doesn’t work.” People will lose their health plans and, rather than demanding, once and for all, that the country switch to single-payer, everyone will sulk away and lick their wounds. And this chimera of a disaster will limp along for a while.
The original loaf quote, by the way, I was able to trace to someone named McLean: “We must not say ‘Better half a loaf than no bread.’ We must insist upon the whole loaf; we must instist upon a batch of loaves. The wasted dough, the back-door crust—they must not seem to us adequate.”
We have been conditioned over many decades to accept scraps and thank the people who give them to us. We should be saying, “To hell with this. I pay my taxes. I’m a citizen. I want what you have: good schools, safe neighborhoods, viable retirements, access to healthcare without being driven into bankruptcy. to hell with your crusts and scraps. You gamed the system and now that I’ve finally figured out the whole thing’s riggd, you’re trying to close down the funfair?”
Ah! I see the Supremes actually upheld Obamacare subsidies. Excellent. Now the issue can continue to be held up as something to keep people fearful of “socialism.”
“Let’s not go any further with this Obamacare stuff. Look how badly stitched together it is. We could collapse the whole system if we aren’t careful.” …
Oh, and let me clarify my position- single payer was not then and is not possible now, HERE in this country., so saying “Canada has it”- not really any sort of rebuttal.
It will take a minimum of a generation of hard work and tiny incremental steps before we get single payer here. And that’s assuming “progressives” come to their senses and abandon their stuck-on-stupid punishment strategy.
If they don’t come to their senses, it’ll be a millennia and 2 or 3 generations before we get it.
“It isn’t about making the country more progressive by handing it over to Republicans.”
And the confederate flag isn’t about racism. Shyeah, right. Whatever you think your strategy is about, the practical result of your strategy is what it’s ACTUALLY about. And the result of that strategy is the handing over of the country to the Republicans.
Just like the supporters of the confederate flag deny what their flag is obviously about, you ignore what the result of your strategy is actually about.
“Hillary will make all the right noises, do all the right speeches, and, just like Obama, at the end of the day, it’ll be a big pile of not much. ”
You have yet to make a convincing, or hell, any case why a big pile of not much doesn’t totally trump a mile deep hole dug into the already weakened foundations of this country. Care to try?
““We must not say ‘Better half a loaf than no bread.’ We must insist upon the whole loaf; we must insist upon a batch of loaves. ”
We absolutely should demand a batch of loves. What we shouldn’t do is when the baker comes out with 85%-90% of what the bakery is capable of producing at that time, we shouldn’t riot and burn down the bakery because we didn’t get all the loves we wanted right then.
We should be grateful, and work with the baker on expanding the capacity of the bakery to produce more loves.
North Korea is far more progressive than the fascist U.$. Empire. They have their own eccentric ways perhaps, but they have had to deal with U.S. Imperialism for almost 70 years now. Don’t believe the propaganda. Check out the following link from an Australian professor who recently visited the DPRK. He actually has several posts about his experience in DPR Korea on his blog. Don’t make assumptions. Get all sides of the story.
http://stalinsmoustache.org/2015/06/15/brazen-american-imperialist-aggressors-seeing-the-world-from-the-dprk/
If I may paraphrase – «everybody talking about NK ain’t been there, NK». NK today plays the role that, e g, China played for 17th century Jesuits or Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, i e, as the «Other», an entity, unknown to one’s audience (and often,as in the case of Hegel, unto the commentator himself) onto which qualities, positive (the Jesuits) or negative (Hegel) can freely be projected, without fear of contradiction by people who actually know something about the matter….
Today, North Korea is used as a bogeyman, either to frighten people in general, or as a euphemism for China, as when the military in the US or Japan talk about «defence» from «North Korean» weapons systems. On the other hand, Korea has been used as a substitute for China ever since Hideyoshi’s day….
Henri
Disclaimer : I have visited Pyongyang, as a guest of the Swedish Embassy, some three and a half decades ago. I stayed a couple of days, visiting museums with a Japanese-speaking guide (by that time I had forgotten the little Korean I had once learned) and walking freely about the streets. I do not regard myself as being in any way an «expert» on North Korea….
«Many lefties, me included, won’t vote for Hillary Clinton because she supported the Iraq War, a mistake for which sbe has never apologized, and has doubled down upon with her actions destroying Libya, now a failed state.» → Many lefties, me included, won’t vote for Hillary Clinton because she supported the Iraq War, a crime for which she has never apologized – nor been indicted before a competent tribunal – and has doubled down upon with her actions destroying Libya, now a failed state.» Fixed it for you, Ted….
Does one absolve oneself of a crime by apologizing? Many a Nazi (etal) would have loved such an opportunity, methinks. ;D